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neil85ae86
11-30-2008, 08:38 AM
I'm not a Mobil 1 groupie, not saying that it isn't a good product cause it is, I just buy whatever synthetic is on-sale, sometimes it's cheaper than dino, and it has to be better right just based on uniformity?

Anyways, Crappy Tire Formula1 100% synth is on for $14.49 a 4.4L jug, all grades. I picked up some 5w-20 for my DD and some 5w-50 for the 86.

Neil

Dirt-McGirt
11-30-2008, 05:48 PM
I'm with ya... Kinda. If you burn any oil at all, cheap Syn is your worst enemy. The cheaper it is, the more ash it leaves behind when burned. But i am a sucker for good deals.

sunray
11-30-2008, 09:48 PM
Shiddy that there are only a cople of oils on the market now that are okay for flat tappet cams like my poor T-car.

Answ3r
11-30-2008, 09:49 PM
Like which ?

sunray
11-30-2008, 11:47 PM
Like which ?

Anything still using zddp. Stuff like amsoil, some hd diesel oil, and mobil 1 extended performance 5w30 thru 15w50 all have enough, mobil 1 turbo diesel truck 5w40 is win.

Shell rotella T had enough intil very recently, now its no good. There are others but just remember that newer oils even synthetics, are pretty crap for older flat tappet engines.

Brian
12-01-2008, 11:16 AM
Anything still using zddp. Stuff like amsoil, some hd diesel oil, and mobil 1 extended performance 5w30 thru 15w50 all have enough, mobil 1 turbo diesel truck 5w40 is win.

Shell rotella T had enough intil very recently, now its no good. There are others but just remember that newer oils even synthetics, are pretty crap for older flat tappet engines.

I heard that GM sells a zddp additive?

Sux to hear about Rotella T. I been using it in my truck :shocked:

Answ3r
12-01-2008, 02:17 PM
What is the minimum ZDDP content allowable for flat tappet? I guess it's better for regular engine like 4ag too...

Valvoline racing line claims to be zinc full and SynPower line too I think...

http://www.valvoline.com/downloads/2008-003a.pdf

Brian
12-01-2008, 04:14 PM
What is the minimum ZDDP content allowable for flat tappet? I guess it's better for regular engine like 4ag too...


Meh 4AG does not have top end lubrications issues. The flat tappet issues are well known in the GM circles, where cams 'go flat' from lack of proper lube.

Our engines have good oiling to the cam area. Actually, they tend to get immersed in oil under continuous left-turns, remember?

Run whatever oil you want in a 4AG. If it's not knocking or rattling, I generally use 10w30 Esso or Shell or whatever... no reclaimed/recycled stuff tho.

Answ3r
12-01-2008, 04:38 PM
My engine has been rebuilded like 30 000km ago, it has been beaten hard since, I run pdm cams... I am wasting my money with synthetic ?

Brian
12-01-2008, 05:39 PM
My engine has been rebuilded like 30 000km ago, it has been beaten hard since, I run pdm cams... I am wasting my money with synthetic ?

Nope. We run synth oils on rebuilt engines after a thorough thrashing and ring seating session, when oil consumption drops to 'normal.'

We don't bother on old, non-rebuilt ones. Doesn't seem to make much difference on the old tired motors.

Hemi3tc
12-01-2008, 10:11 PM
Cadillac Forums: Engine Oil Myths including ZDP by GM

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/125545-engine-oil-myths-including-zdp-gm.html

The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).






Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.

ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.

In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.

In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.

However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.

The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.

The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.

- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.

- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.



Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)

Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.

Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.


Special thanks to GM's Techlink
- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group

ryzilla
12-01-2008, 10:45 PM
ward up, ill use any cheap syn on any other car that my silvia, but i'm definitely picky about what oil goes in there, currently using mobil1 5w40 heavy duty truck oil.. workin on lube shops is good stuff, cheap oil changes =)

sunray
12-02-2008, 01:03 AM
That article is crap. ZDDP being important is not a myth, it is fact. Cams on these older motor used to last a very long time until recently, very recently. And the cam material has not changed, same cams I have always used, especially true with regrinds properly parkerized.

ZDDP content of around 800ppm is NEEDED for older flat tappet cams that use heavy valve spring pressure. 4ag's likely don't suffer because the valves, springs, and retainers are all light weight and low pressure (comparitively). I mean seated pressure on my 2TC is 170 lbs with single high lift springs. Thats what keeps the pushrods in place at stupid rpm.

Older built motors use much larger valves and springs because they must be larger being that there are less of them. 41mm valve has a lot of weight to return when it increases in speed.

Now if you go roller, then you really don't need the ZDDP content. Roller lifters do not suffer the same way. And guess what? Almost ALL new engines are rollerized. Remember, the oem companies only tested their new formulas on bone stock old engines running in not-so-real-world conditions. And they consider old to be 2003 right now.

And the starburst has nothing to do with the ZDDP content unless you look at the API rating in that symbol. SJ and before all has a good 800ppm ZDDP, but once we got SL and beyond we lost it to save the HO2S sensors. Only one oil I know today that has a stupid high level of ZDDP and thats Mobil 1 Racing 0w20 and 0w30 which has 1750ppm which I think is overkill.

Bottom line is old flat tappet engine of old design, the whole engine will not fail, but the lifter crowns and camshaft lobes will fade away quickly, usually within two years without a decent dose of ZDDP.

Hemi3tc
02-17-2009, 05:58 PM
Mobil 1 15W - 50 now is a recommended oil for older engines with flat tappets.
It does not have to be the extended performance version. Since both 15W-50 oils contain a Nominal Phosphorus Level of 1200 PPM. Sale on at CT this week.


"""Mobil 1 15W-50 is also recommended for older valve train designs that may benefit from a higher level of anti-wear normally not required for newer generation vehicles. Mobil 1 15W-50 will also provide better anti-wear protection for higher valve spring tensions in certain racing engines."""

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_15W-50_.aspx

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Zinc_Motor_Oils.aspx

""However, there are Mobil 1 products which have a higher level of phosphorus (phos) and can be used in engines in racing or high performance applications; see the attached table.""

davew
02-18-2009, 06:53 PM
Ask your GM oil expert Bob, If the new API rated oils are not the cause of the cam failures, then why does General Motors recommend that you use theirs EOS oil fortifier if you have a muscule car era GM motor that has a high lift flat tappet cam?

My cam and bearing sources say you got to have the ZDDP for these old motors Dave W