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Thread: Modding steering knuckles

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by drader View Post
    ya the knuckle picture is from an rx7, i just thought it was a good visual of moving the mounting point.

    So far the only thing I have learned is that the mounting point should be as short as possible and lower than stock.
    Then you shouldn't be modding knuckles.


  2. #22
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    ^^ Ya, not as short as posable, as short as is useable.
    I want you to learn too, read up on ackerman, its realy quite easy.

    Answ3r where did yo uget that formula? kinda comon sence once you have an idea of what you are looking at. But I havent heard of any one else doing that before.

    Ryan, do some measuring and draw some circles.
    Or come visit me in Calgary, I will show you what I know, I dont want to draw a tone of crap I'm slow with computers, well slow in general.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Answ3r View Post
    Then you shouldn't be modding knuckles.


    Come on man,
    I don't want to be an aerospace engineer (rocket scientist)
    I just want to drift

    Quote Originally Posted by Sazukawa from a-bo-mu-nn
    "I've been Shakotann(low ridding cars) for 10 years but still don't understand the concept of roll-center. What i worry is how my car sounds and how my aero comes off....."
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by drader View Post
    I just want to drift
    Then run stock knuckles, add 5mm spacers to the rack (or whatever it will take) and get a LOT of seat time. Unless your holding against maximum lock in a smooth drift and really do NEED more angle, it won't help you if your skills aren't there yet. Not that I'm saying your a bad driver or nuthin, since I have NO idea how good (or bad ) you are...

    In the mean time, do research on what you 'want' the car to do. And how to go about making it do it.

    Andrew
    1984 SR-5 (GT-S converted)
    1995 4x4 Tacoma
    Incomplete list of truck mods at
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by assassin10000 View Post
    Then run stock knuckles, add 5mm spacers to the rack (or whatever it will take) and get a LOT of seat time. Unless your holding against maximum lock in a smooth drift and really do NEED more angle, it won't help you if your skills aren't there yet. Not that I'm saying your a bad driver or nuthin, since I have NO idea how good (or bad ) you are...

    In the mean time, do research on what you 'want' the car to do. And how to go about making it do it.

    Andrew
    You have hit the nail on the head,
    I do in fact drift at full lock 90% of the time.
    I feel it is holding me back.
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  6. #26
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    Got spacers then?

    What kind of car?

    Andrew
    1984 SR-5 (GT-S converted)
    1995 4x4 Tacoma
    Incomplete list of truck mods at
    http://www.parksoffroad.com/Our%20Ri...cab%20taco.htm

  7. #27
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    Too many non drifters trying to give advice here. Have you guys even seen some of the knuckles that the japs make? There sketchier then greenie after a 26.

    Rack spacers will amplify akerman, akerman is for the dumb euro sleds. That Rx7 knuckle is a one way, but full lock to lock is less than 2 turns and super twitchy, and it adds akerman. You want to cut out about 3/4 inch and have the tie rod pic up point in line with the old mounting point. So all your doing is moving it back 3/4 inch, not in, not out. We had a buddy back yard weld up some knuckles and they took a beating! no probs at all. You best bet is to take the extra hr or two and make a jig!

    then go slide.


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt-McGirt View Post
    Too many non drifters trying to give advice here. Have you guys even seen some of the knuckles that the japs make? There sketchier then greenie after a 26.

    Rack spacers will amplify akerman, akerman is for the dumb euro sleds. That Rx7 knuckle is a one way, but full lock to lock is less than 2 turns and super twitchy, and it adds akerman. You want to cut out about 3/4 inch and have the tie rod pic up point in line with the old mounting point. So all your doing is moving it back 3/4 inch, not in, not out. We had a buddy back yard weld up some knuckles and they took a beating! no probs at all. You best bet is to take the extra hr or two and make a jig!

    then go slide.
    I'll add to this with pics, this is what the fc guys do. Remember to heat up the cast really well before welding and to let it cool down very slowly by placing it in a fiberglass bag or something like that.






  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunray View Post
    Cast Iron and steel should not be welded in the case of suspension. You cannot see it but cast actually stretches on a molecular level to the point of being very brittle and ready to snap.

    Instead, try making new steering arms using regular steel. You can cut a new arm out of some 1/2-3/4" steel which will be very strong and you can make them to any length you want. But before doing so you may want to read up on the effects of ackerman angle.
    QFT.

    If you're not a certified (licensed) welder, I wouldn't try it at all.

    Want more angle in a corolla? Put in a manual rack.
    - Brian


  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulcorolla View Post
    Answ3r where did yo uget that formula? kinda comon sence once you have an idea of what you are looking at. But I havent heard of any one else doing that before.

    I'd say it's part drifting forums, part of ton of reading on ackerman effects/suspension geometry and part mechanical engineering.

    The mesurement I gave is close to perfect for an S13. On a ae86, it seems that going shorter than PS knuckles might be too short. I still need to mess with it more until I can conclude.

    I just don't feel like writing a super long theorical post as it would require technical drawings to be clear, and he probly wouldn't even listen... I'll still add a bit more info...

    The point is that the ackerman effects is not linear thru the whole movement of the steering. Since you are increasing maximum angle with spacers and other mods, you end up with way to much angular difference between both wheels. When shortening your knuckles, it's important to move the tie rod pickup point close to the ball joint axis (horizontally, in the direction perpendicular to which you are shortening). As I said in my last post, moving it from half the stock mesurement is a good rule of thumb. The exact optimal mesurement could be figured out by a lot of messing around or drawing the whole steering/suspension assembly in a 3D CAD software.

    Drader, since you still have a KA in your S13, I tend to believe that angle might not be holding you back that much since even at stock full lock a car slows down pretty quickly. If you are talking about small curves, maybe, but I'd be surprised to see you drifting a high line in a bank at full lock...

  11. #31
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    1984 SR-5 (GT-S converted)
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  12. #32
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    I don't buy anything that I can make myself.
    Rule of thumb.
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  13. #33
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    Answ3r, I agree, lots of measuring and testing is needed for optimal.

    I spent a lot of time 2 winters ago messing with the length of steering arms, rack travel, the point at which the outer tierod conects, and rack placement.
    I did a lot of tacking stuff in place and then measuring of the wheel angle left vs right, at different amounts of lock.
    I got mine set up to be 5* ackerman at about 90% lock, the last 10% it increases a bunch, which is hard to get rid of due to the nature of the angles and arms.

    I went as far as putting the left arm on the right side and the right arm on the left side, got some interesting results, and HUGE angle, but way too much ackerman.

    PS I like this thread, much good steering talk!

  14. #34
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    Depends on what it is, I made a trans adapter recently. But the copies I'm getting made by someone else (time/cost effective). Sometimes it's cheaper/easier to buy it than DIY.

    In any case, you can always copy. IF you look closely you'll see they rotated the tie rod end mount point a little as well. In any case, goodluck with it. They've got some good info in that post on how much they dropped the mount point vs stock, 3/4".

    Andrew
    1984 SR-5 (GT-S converted)
    1995 4x4 Tacoma
    Incomplete list of truck mods at
    http://www.parksoffroad.com/Our%20Ri...cab%20taco.htm

  15. #35
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    Just to dump it out there, I have never made any modifications to steering knuckles...

    But isn't Ackerman caused by the difference in the length of the steering rack (pivot points on the ends of the tierods) in comparison to the length from the tip (pivoting point) of each LCA? Then obviously any changes in the suspension geometry that are visible on the vertical plane would affect this.

    MS PAINT!
    (top down, or bottom up? only the vertical plane would matter for ackerman...)


    box 1 would have no ackerman
    box 2 would have some ackerman

    So with that said you just need to find the sweet spot, assuming you know what you want.

    Yeh or neh?
    BCWORKS

  16. #36
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    This is retarded. Just drill a hole closer and throw some spacer on the inner tie rods and do an alignment. **** the rest of this ****. Drive the car, and the wheels turn more. "I just want to drift" negates all other points.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren View Post
    Just to dump it out there, I have never made any modifications to steering knuckles...

    But isn't Ackerman caused by the difference in the length of the steering rack (pivot points on the ends of the tierods) in comparison to the length from the tip (pivoting point) of each LCA? Then obviously any changes in the suspension geometry that are visible on the vertical plane would affect this.

    MS PAINT!
    (top down, or bottom up? only the vertical plane would matter for ackerman...)

    box 1 would have no ackerman
    box 2 would have some ackerman

    So with that said you just need to find the sweet spot, assuming you know what you want.

    Yeh or neh?

    Not sure I completly understand your drawing, but I think you got it right.

    Removing "ackerman" on the knuckles also gives you clearances for LCA. On my ae86 with steering spacers I rub REALLY badly the frame with supra wheels and 3/4'' longer LCAs. If I remove the wheel, the tie rod end can come in contact with LCA.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by answ3r View Post
    not sure i completly understand your drawing, but i think you got it right.

    Removing "ackerman" on the knuckles also gives you clearances for lca. On my ae86 with steering spacers i rub really badly the frame with supra wheels and 3/4'' longer lcas. If i remove the wheel, the tie rod end can come in contact with lca.
    ms paint is the ****!
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  19. #39
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    Some stuff I found on ackerman.

    Mildly Interactive

    Text and animations

    Text and images



    Another question. If I used the powered by max style knuckles, what would happen if I didn't add the steering rack spacers?
    As it clearly states that the spacers are part of the kit.
    Last edited by drader; 11-05-2009 at 11:43 AM.
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  20. #40
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    You just wouldn't get as much movement/angle out of the rack itself. The knuckles would still give you more angle.

    Quote Originally Posted by drader View Post
    Exactly what my **** MS Paint diagram was trying to show. That is a great demo.
    Last edited by Warren; 11-05-2009 at 11:47 AM.
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