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Thread: "Project Turquoise" aka Tommy's little peanut...

  1. #521
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    Ya I moved the inner up 25mm and out 50mm
    The tc mount pivot is also moved back 35mm from stock by the tc rods I have.

    I meant you should lower the car till the tc mount is on the ground, and move everything around to suit. Tounge firmly in cheek

  2. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulcorolla View Post
    Ya I moved the inner up 25mm and out 50mm
    The tc mount pivot is also moved back 35mm from stock by the tc rods I have.

    I meant you should lower the car till the tc mount is on the ground, and move everything around to suit. Tounge firmly in cheek
    Hahahah :P

    My LCA mount is moved 57mm out (beat you) :P hahaha Will look at moving it up 25mm also for anti-dive purposes. TC bracket will probably move forward by 25mm as well as 25mm down and I'll redrill the LCA for the TC bolt 57mm inward as to offset the mod on the mount... will also help with binding issues with the tire at full lock.

    Here is just a quick drawing of the geometry, missing the CG position and the line to the tie contact patch to determine the % of anto-dive, actually did everything on the calculator, too hard and to approximate to do with line on paint but this is just to give a general idea...

    Blue are reference lines for horizontal and vertical
    Green is the strut with 6.5? of caster
    Yellow is the LCA pivot line, link between the control arm pivot and the TC rod
    Red are both projection lines, the lower passing through the LCA pivot line and the other orthogonal to the strut (90? to the caster angle starting at the camber plate)
    Pink this is the "strut top" projection line with stock caster.



    As you can see, the lower red line is slopping down... this is stock position of both TC and LCA mount. If we go way way back, we can actually see the intersection point which is is the IC and is under ground... and this is with increased caster... would have to move back a lot more for the pink line (stock caster) to intercept the lower red one... so far back I couldn't plot it.



    But as you can see, moving one or both LCA pivot point a bit will equal big changes in the IC (intercept between upper and lower line). This is why I believe it's not necessary to go to the extent as changing the TC side. Spacing the TC bracket 3/4" will get the lower line flat with the horizontal which will give 5.9% anti-dive using 6.5? or caster and it shouldn't run into the ground (just for you paul!). The rest can be done by moving the control arm bushing up on the crossmember to give a little more anti-dive. You won't get 100% anti-dive but you wouldn't want to anyway. Don't think it's even possible to overdo it by keeping the TC in front and just moving both points up or down by a small amount. I'll calculate the anti-dive with the TC mount 25mm down and LCA mount 25mm up after supper and will post back the results here... I'll also run paul's numbers just to give an idea... not much more difficult anyway.
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  3. #523
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    Well paul, you probably didn't know but you hit the target sir. Given the info I had, with my 6.5? of caster (should be close as we both moved our LCA pivot point by the same amount) and with a couple educated guess like CG height, front to back weight distrbution and ground clearance, you have 31.4% anti-dive build in... moving the LCA pivot up 1" and the TC bracket down 1" like I wanted to give s 52.5% anti-dive... which looks a little on the high side.

    All things being equal, lots of parameter were educated guess or "as close to reality as I could get" so they are not definite anwsers but given the numbers I got I think I'll just have to copy pauls design as it is pretty much on the target I was aiming for. Well done sir!
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  4. #524
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    Have you thought about roll center? If you mount the inner pinot point of the lower arms upwards then you are raising the roll center. I made this mistake on a ministock oval track car thinking I was making camber gain but it really made for some understeer. after I put it back to stock but used longer arms to get the correct camber, then car handled way better.

    Gary

  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary View Post
    Have you thought about roll center? If you mount the inner pinot point of the lower arms upwards then you are raising the roll center. I made this mistake on a ministock oval track car thinking I was making camber gain but it really made for some understeer. after I put it back to stock but used longer arms to get the correct camber, then car handled way better.

    Gary
    Funny how you bring that on now, I was thinking about that this morning sitting in traffic

    Decided to weld the front frame rail section with the bottom flush with the section where the crossmember is bolted down. Normally the frame rail tapers down in the front section and the base of it where the TC bracket bolts on is 1/2" higher than where the crossmember is. That way all I have to do is move the control arm pivot up 1/2" instead of 1" to get the same angle. I'm aware it will bring the roll center higher but since the car is dropped quite a way, the small T3 RCAs are probably not tall enough so the roll center is probably lower than stock. Getting the pivot only 1/2" higher should take care of bringing it back to stockish level. I'll wait before redrilling the crossmember to have the car on the ground and be able to plot the roll center and IC to be really sure I'm not messing things up too badly.

    So front frame rails are set in place with metal screws, TC brackets fitted. All that is left to do is weld them down for good.

    Almost stock looking

    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  6. #526
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    Feels good to have a frame rails back on. A bit of grinding left (none done on the front actually) but it's all rock solid. Oh and I've had a couple people come to me worried about my "butt joined front part". Do not worry people : by fabbing brackets on the frame rails to serve as engine mounts, I'll have an extra sheet of 16ga overlapping the weld



    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  7. #527
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    And here's something new on that car... a lower rad support

    Changed the angles a bit to be able to offset the rad to the driver's side in order to leave a nice 5 inch wide gap on the intake side (right hand side of the rad) to fit some kind of air box with filter. Ran out of time but all that's left to do is welding it in place.


    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  8. #528
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    Lookin' Freshhhhhhhhh
    SpeedHero

    Spirit of the Street, King of Sport

  9. #529
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    Found a picture on my hard drive or Justin's old setup just to show what I'm trying to achieve by moving the radiator toward the drivers side

    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  10. #530
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    Hey tommy,

    I just wanted to say I love your build! I actually read through (scrolled down for pictures, then read the captions) all 27 pages of your build. There's a ton of useful 7AGE info in here that's hard to find elsewhere on the internet.

    Regarding the cam timing gears, you're running 2 7AFE ones, right? Are they larger than 4AGE cam gears? I asked someone else in another forum and they said they are, however, they don't look larger on your engine.

    Also, what car is this windage tray off of? A 4AGE?

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I didn't think a 7AFE had a windage tray. And even if it did, it would have a notch on one of the sides, right? I believe a 20v 4AGE windage tray would fit. Just wanted to double-check

    Can't wait for updates; keep up the great work!

    (P.S. - Yes, I registered here after reading your build ^_^)
    Last edited by yellowsnow4free; 04-06-2015 at 02:51 PM.

  11. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by yellowsnow4free View Post
    Hey tommy,

    I just wanted to say I love your build! I actually read through (scrolled down for pictures, then read the captions) all 27 pages of your build. There's a ton of useful 7AGE info in here that's hard to find elsewhere on the internet.

    Regarding the cam timing gears, you're running 2 7AFE ones, right? Are they larger than 4AGE cam gears? I asked someone else in another forum and they said they are, however, they don't look larger on your engine.
    I guess a picture is worth a thousand words...



    They are larger having 48 teeth instead of 36 but the pitch is 8mm instead or 3/8" (~9.5mm) so 384mm dia at the belt for the 7A (4A-FE are the same) and 342.9mm for the 4A-GE. They still do fit under the stock timing cover but I wouldn't run it that way because the belt might rub a bit on a couple places around the pulleys themselves which is kind of sketch. You do have to use a 2JZ belt with that setup and need to narrow the belt down a couple MM from 25 to 21mm.


    Quote Originally Posted by yellowsnow4free View Post
    Also, what car is this windage tray off of? A 4AGE?


    I didn't think a 7AFE had a windage tray. And even if it did, it would have a notch on one of the sides, right? I believe a 20v 4AGE windage tray would fit. Just wanted to double-check
    Yes it's a bone stock bluetop 4A-GE windage tray. Couldn't source a 20v one fast enough so ended up notching it myself to bolt on the 7A block... which leads to less than perfect work compared to the stock stamped piece On the other hand the dummy block I used to weld the tray without warping is a 3 rib bluetop block so I was able to bolt down every holes securely and then proceeded in creating the notch.

    Quote Originally Posted by yellowsnow4free View Post
    Can't wait for updates; keep up the great work!

    (P.S. - Yes, I registered here after reading your build ^_^)
    Thanks for the kind words, it's kind of a lengthy built with a lot (read that LOUD) of plan changes... too many hours spent on that freaking frankeinstein already and it's still not finished lol
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  12. #532
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    Well for people following this thread for long enough, you might remember on page 16 a post about life throwing curve balls... I got back with my ex-girlfriend about a year ago, trying to fix things out and make it work... you know the old saying "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"?

    ...well shame on me. Got dealt the same freaking hand once again. Being a scientist I should've known that only fools try the same experience twice expecting different results. Hell now you can talk trash about her, only bitches would be disrespectful enough to do that twice (or thrice) to the father of her son.

    So here I am running away as fast as I can without looking back like I did so foolishly last year. I've got to travel light and I've got to reorganized priorities... so as I'm writing this, the KE is just about to be sold to a good buddy of mine... guy that has been into corollas for over 15 years... and drifting the same one for over 9 years. It's not done yet but should be soon enough. It pains me but I just can't keep up with it right now and even if I had a spot to let the shell rot somewhere, I just couldn't take it off my mind. And going to a friend that will take care of it is just easing the pain.

    I'm letting everything go with the shell (which is a pretty nice parts list for everyone that knows) except the damn engine... who would've guess lol

    Will be moving to a 2 bedroom Condo ASAP so I'll just get all my tools at my father's place, stealing a corner of the basement and will finish the damn thing over there. Decided to throw all my fabbed stuff in a bin labeled "for brighter days" and to slap the engine together with all stock parts... stock belts, stock pulleys, stock oil pump, stock 7A pan, stock management, stock coolant routing... even fitting the darn timing covers. Just keeping the PDM cams on a stock smallport head bolted above a 7A block and throwing a bluetop small (40mm) crank, GA16/QG18 rods and the F/A pistons inside it. Just to have something "bolt on" I can throw anywhere with ease and make it run just to prove the concept of my "long rod 4A-GE"...

    So a friend of mine just dropped by earlier today and left me a bunch of stock parts...

    ...may be moving to the dark side...

    ...throwing that marvel in my crappy daily replacing its 310k km engine lol When life gives you lemon make some lemonade... or drive the wrong wheels. At least you're driving something somewhere forward so I guess it's not all that bad



    Last edited by tommy; 04-06-2015 at 06:49 PM.
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  13. #533
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    I'm sorry to hear about that, but you must know that matters of the heart are not subject to science. At least that means for all the illogic there's no peer review to deal with.


    How do you expect the factory management to deal with "the less-little engine that could"? forgive my corolla un-knowledge but it's replacing a red top correct? I have poked into those PCMs and can offer some insight as to WHAT it's trying to do if not what the effect will be.

  14. #534
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    Sorry for your hardships. Some day I would like to see one of your crazy builds come together! Sell me the TRD diff tho, not to your buddy!. I need it for orange.
    1987 Corolla GTS Hatch | 1985 Corolla GTS Coupe | 1987 Corolla GTS Coupe | 1992 Tercel CE | 1992 Paseo | 2003 Corolla CE | 1974 Corolla 4 Door | 1978 Corolla Coupe | 1979 Corolla Hatch SR5 | <3||||||1990 Miata |||||| <3
    I like Toyota's wanna fight about it?

  15. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkie View Post
    I'm sorry to hear about that, but you must know that matters of the heart are not subject to science. At least that means for all the illogic there's no peer review to deal with.
    Lol, love it! I'll try to remember that one in the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkie View Post
    How do you expect the factory management to deal with "the less-little engine that could"? forgive my corolla un-knowledge but it's replacing a red top correct? I have poked into those PCMs and can offer some insight as to WHAT it's trying to do if not what the effect will be.
    The engine still has 1.6L displacement just better bottom end geometry, slightly more agressive cams : mild 261? (still well bellow the factory ECU limit) and a nicely warming 11.5:1 CR... stock bluetop management should take care of that with maybe a slight tweek on injectors setup (using green high impedance ones) to account for a little cristal change that will let the engine rev above the stock 7700rpm fuel cut to use it's whole powerband... anyway that's what I'm expecting but some insight couldn't hurt
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  16. #536
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    Sounds like you're transplanting factory ae86 bluetop management in with the motor into the FWD car? what I found with the bluetop management was that the AFM measurement was dependant on the CPU clock - increasing the clock suggests to the CPU that the car is breathing heavier, but then it would apply an increased period to the injectors, which is shortened by the faster clock rate: hence no enleanment from bumping the clock (in theory).

    Of course the timing goes wacky because you've increased the load (noot really but it thinks so, so you get some retard) and decreased the RPM (again not really, but it thinks so, so more retard), and decreased the dwell. I guess that means you get a short, double-retarded spark. Depending on how much you overclock the poor thing it may need a beefier coil to give the same spark output.

    safer bet is to build yourself a hacked bluetop pcm, or jump on over to a JDM redtop (have to borrow dizzy) and get me to throw in my hacking board for you - redtop has more computing power and room to play around with the code.

  17. #537
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    Wow, that is great info

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but an AFM ECU gets it's air mass reading directly... compared to a MAP sensored ECU which calculates it out of manifold pressure using a pre-calculated table coupled to the air temperature sensors for density correction. Playing with the cams (might be a mild cam setup) but coupling that to a different bottom end geometry might get the thing all out of wack no? So sticking with the "infamous" AFM setup might be a not so bad move afterall...?

    Also, I wanted to avoid tuning the whole thing. Otherwise I would just slap a MS on it and be done. This is the main reason for using a stock ECU in the first place. So maybe just getting my hands on a USDM smallport ECU might do it. Since you seem to know the inner workings of it pretty well, if I remember correctly the bluetop TPS is just a basic switch for idle and wot condition, is the smallport one the same? Reason I'm asking is that I have a dozen bluetop TPS but no smallport ones... it's the only part missing btw.
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  18. #538
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    Good call on the AFM there, you're right that the increased breathing from the cams and decreased(?) breathing from the lower piston acceleration will be (somewhat) compensated for in the mixture dept. I suspect that the timing (without touching the crystal) would be pretty good given that the table compensates for pressure inside the cylinder (assumed from load). the only real worry might be the super compression without a detonation sensor. A usdm redtop pcm would give you the AFM you seek plus a knock sensor and the "lack" of required tuning.

    The bluetop throttle sensor is both a potentiometer and a switch. the switch is shorted to E2 at closed throttle (supplies the IDL signal to the PCM) and the pot. provides the VTA signal. toyota was fond of that system for quite a while and the 1990 USDM redtop PCM i have in front of me now expects the same signals.

    speaking of which - anyone got a redtop wiring diagram they'd be willing to fork on over? quick googling didnt get it from club4ag like everytime else i've needed 4a wiring :/

  19. #539
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    Awesome!

    While speaking about compression, the last iteration of that setup will use stock GA16DE or QG18DE rods (both are exactly the same). They are 140.5mm long and have a 19mm flotting pin so fitted to my FA pistons, they are completly bolt on (both uses 19mm flotting pin and they have a 43mm big end, same as bluetop rods) but they are 2mm too short. So I ran some calculations and decided to deck the block 0.040". It should bring the 13:1 C/R down to arond 11.5 so safe enough to run on street gas. Higher piston dwell time at TDC should also reduce the chances of pre-igniting but it's still a bit on the high side to run without a knock sensor. If I can source a cheap USDM highcomp PCM it might be a good idea to use that one. I'll keep an eye out for sure, think I still have the 7A-FE knock sensor... and if not, they are a dime a dozen at the local junk yard
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  20. #540
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    So here it is... sold a bunch of parts and made a couple guys very happy and then made a deal to my buddy who was letting me use his garage which he could not refuse. So the little peanut is his now. I'm a bit sad about it but at the same time I'm having a big burden off of my shoulders... and I'm surely going to be working on that car sooner or later... and drive it (part of the deal lol).

    So the only project still going on (in a couple of weeks when I've moved out definitely) will be the damn engine. I think I'm going to keep updating here since half of this thread is about the damn engine anyway.

    BTW if anyone has a spare USDM smallport ECU laying around I may have a use for it
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

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