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Thread: "Project Turquoise" aka Tommy's little peanut...

  1. #61
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    Well, finally received my rods, so after double checking that everything was fitting good, here is the recipe for the 4A-GE "bigblock"

    Here are the rods to compare

    7AF - E16 - 4AG


    The 7A run on a 48mm crank pin, but the bluetop RWD crank and E16 both runs on 40mm crank. The inside dia of the big end is exactly the same, I even put 4AG bearings in the E16 rod in the picture.



    Only difference between both engine are the oil clearance so the E16 bearings are 0.005mm (0.0002") thicker. The 4A bearing have some smaller notch and the oil holes are on the opposite side. So I'll probably grab some 0.001 or 0.0005 undersize E16 bearing, depending on individual clearance.

    So the E16 rods are between 137 and 137.5mm long (stupid caliper battery died on me) but it's between both measures. Nissan piston pins are 19mm pressed. To fit my bluetop 18mm pistons, I'll only need to oversize the piston hole by 1mm. When I'll have ACCURATE measurements of what's needed to get the piston flush at TDC, I'll be able to move the piston pin + or -5mm from it's original placement in the piston to make the job easier. Should be a really easier and cheap machining operation.

    If one would want to use newer 4AG piston with the 20mm floating pins, one could always mod the rod to oversize the hole and press in a toyota brass bushing and use a 20mm toyota pin and be done with it



    And the rod are exactly the same thickness



    So they go with the bluetop crank like daddy in mommy





    Since the deck height difference between both 4A and 7A bloc is 15mm and the difference between the E16 and 4A rods are between 15 and 15.5mm (stupid batteries again...) I should be able to make them fit even if I need to cheat a little on piston pin height since I already have to mod the piston a little.

    So the recipe is :

    -1 7A block
    -1 bluetop (ou TRD) de 40mm crank
    -4 4ag pistons to go with your head, 16v or 20v, (18 or 20mm pin)
    -4 pin (depending on pistons, either 19mm Nissan or 20mm Toyota)
    -4 rod of E15ET, E16s or E16i from an 80s pulsar NX or Sentra classic.
    -E16 rod bearings (check clearance) or modded 4AG (oil hole)
    -all that's necessary to make a 7A-GE (porsche timing belts, etc...)

    The rest is bolt-on, only need to mod the piston or rods to take either 19mm Nissan pin (if using bluetop pistons) or 20mm Toyota floating pin if using later pistons

    And there you have the poor man's 4AG "bigblock"
    Last edited by tommy; 11-21-2014 at 10:36 AM.
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  2. #62
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    Modding the pistons for a larger pin is exceedingly difficult is it not? I would think both in the case of aligning the piston and getting the hole perfectly smooth and to dimension, as the clearance is really tight. In the case of a non-floating pin, I would think be a lot easier to resize the rod. Just my thoughts, not based on experience mind you.

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cbergerud View Post
    Modding the pistons for a larger pin is exceedingly difficult is it not? I would think both in the case of aligning the piston and getting the hole perfectly smooth and to dimension, as the clearance is really tight. In the case of a non-floating pin, I would think be a lot easier to resize the rod. Just my thoughts, not based on experience mind you.
    Honnestly I haven't talked to my machinist yet on the subjet... I'll keep you guys updated but maybe boring the rod and bushing would be easier, plus floating > press so I might hunt for some small port pistons
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  4. #64
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    agree on using high comp pistons,( 90 corolla GTS). I have had rod resizing done on small ends ,works good. you dont need to install a bushing, it will work with just a machined surface.
    thoughts on you choice of crank. I understand you want to make this a high reving engine. the blue top crank is a weaker crank than the later cranks, 1988 and up. I know of a couple cases where they have broken due to reving past 8000 rpm.
    I know the old blue tops are a more free reving engine due to the lighter rods and crank but for your purpose a later cranks may be a better choice.
    just my 2 cents.
    Gary

  5. #65
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    Well the TRD unit used in Group A is also a 40mm crank

    Also the less bearing surface you have the less friction so not is it lighter, it also offer less resistance. And I've crunched some numbers comparing piston speed, acceleration and rod angularity between the 7A, 4A and my "big block"

    Red - 7A
    Blue - 4A
    Green - big block 4A

    Those graph were done at 7700rpm (doesn't matter on the rod angularity graph) but keep in mind that the higher you rev, the more difference their will be.

    Piston speed is pretty close between stock 4A and modded on


    Although you can see that both lines don't overlap


    G-forces at TDC are 2.5% less with the longer rods, area under the curve is also a lot less with longer rods. That's what breaks your crank, the acceleration compared with the earth gravitationnal pull of 9.8m/s^2 and we are talking about over 3000g, so a 1lbs piston have the same force on the crank as a 1.5ton one when reving to the red line... 2.5% doesn't seem a lot but it actually is... and gets even higher as you push the revs. Hayabusa engines run 40mm (or 38mm) crank pin an push 170hp @ over 9.500rpm... but they also use a ratio a little over 1.8:1

    Rod angularity is where it make the most sens for the mod though


    The biggest problem with the 4A is lateral load, that's why they turned it from a 3 rib to 7rib, but as a lot of you know, it isn't strong enough even there... directing the piston force as straight as possible on the crank throw will mean that forces will be applied on the bloc on it's best axis. And less load on the cylinder wall means less friction and is easier on the rings.

    Sure if you push some boost inside there, forget about it, but in trying to make a high rev N/A 4A, that's probably the best combination for the price... better would be the same setup but with custom titanium rods.. but that's 10 times more costly than my 36$ rods
    Last edited by tommy; 11-21-2014 at 10:37 AM.
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  6. #66
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    Maybe pot the lower half of the cylinder water jackets in concrete?

    And full floating rods is pretty easy. I have done a bunch on a sunnen machine. Your graph makes it look like not much difference but going from 31-ish to 36-ish m/sec is substantial. I bet your biggest gain (apart from better squeeze) with the longer stroke is going to be the extra tdc dwell time.


    Or you could have said "sorry, my kidnap victims keep kicking my elbow, it made me drop my crack pipe and swerve"

    -bangnscrape

  7. #67
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    Awesome graphs. This is a great engine build. Thanks for posting these.

    With that increase dwell will you want a different ignition curve do you think? Or maybe run slightly more retarded? Or is it negligable?
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  8. #68
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    Thx guys, potting the block would be nice, I'm starting to think about it.

    A local guy has redtop piston and pins so I'm going that route. I'll probably bush the rods just to be sure though.

    Oh and for the extra dwell time, that's indeed a very nice thing about going with longer rods. On a large port engine like those early 4A it should make an even bigger difference. I have no idea on the ignition theory regarding that setup though, I need to thing a bit more about it. One thing about keeping the piston longer at TDC is that ping is less likely to happen and change in ignition timing are less noticable so they is more margin for error. On that subject, I forgot to tell you that I have just decided to ditch the stock EFI and go carb. Since the car is carbed to begin with, it's a lot easier and makes for a cleaner engine bay and an easier wiring job. Plus I love carbs and have some nice experience in tuning/jetting them so it should be no problem.

    For ignition I have found a really nice setup using a bosch ignition control module (same as used in the carbed 4A-F) that will allow me to run the stock bluetop dist. You just wire the chip on the tach output signal from the dist and it has a build in advance curve in relation to RPM so you just wire it to the coil and it drives the coil without input from the ECU. Only thing with that is that the carb has no vaccum advance, but I have heard quite a lot of guys running this spark management on carbed or standalone 4AG with no problem what so ever.

    So I guess I'll experiment on spark advance as I have always done with my carbed car and fine a nice setup right on the edge... been there, done that, even got the t-shirt to proove
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  9. #69
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    Only issue I can see is the added stress to the crank given the rod length/ dwell time and/so although your timing inputs may not have to be as finite to avoid pinging, you'll definitely have to play around a bit to find a sweet spot that won't make it a dog at higher rpm. But with that said, I'm loving this thread, some pretty cool stuff you're doing here.

  10. #70
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    Central America was a little to hot for me... think it cooked my brain...

    Last edited by tommy; 07-02-2013 at 06:13 PM.
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  11. #71
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    Oh dear.

    1970 KE17 Project
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    GZE manifold with a carb adapter?
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    I like Toyota's wanna fight about it?

  13. #73
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    Right on!

    And a Holley 4bbl 600cfm carb sitting on the throne... poor man's carb setup
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

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    #joel pineau
    BCWORKS

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    Crazy!!

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    This is really cool! props man!
    except the amount of winky faces in this thread is going to make my head explode...

  17. #77
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    Thx for the compliment LOL

    Head porting is almost finished, just need to finish the surface but I kinda lost my sanding paper box... long story

    Anyway, I worked on the bigblock a little yesterday. Poor block has had it's share of salt in the face... 16 years of winter driving will sometimes to that to you...

    I started chipping rust away with a hammer and chisel before brushing it and finally got it looking like that



    But it left an orange peel finished on it... and I can really look forward at having and argument with a cop : "No officer, that engine is not stolen... just look at the serial numbers..."



    Anyway, if the whole "BMW turbo 1.5L F1 story about the old block left to rust and being pissed on by the mechanist before producing 1350hp firebreathing monster" is true, maybe that's a good thing after all...

    I also spend a good amount of time doing this



    And now before ordering my bearings, I'm on the fence about how I want my oil clearances. Normally I would build it on the loose side and run a thicker oil with maybe a restrictor between the block and head to get more volume to the bottom, but since I'm trying to build a high rev engine efficient up top, I had the idea to build the engine with tight oil clearance and run a really light oil (think Prius juice), it would help to reduce parasitic loss to the oil pump and reduce vibration at high rpm... the only concern I have is concerning oil temp but I guess if I monitor it closely and run and efficient oil cooler, I should be ok... and I could always run something like 0w40 or 0w50 grad oil. So just to give some perspective, I'm aiming at 0.0008" on the rods and 0.0009" on the mains. Any input on that subject, what do you guys use for oil clearance when building your 4AGs?
    Last edited by tommy; 07-02-2013 at 06:14 PM.
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  18. #78
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    Well thanks to some of you guys, I thought a lot about it and finally decided to aim for 0.0013" oil clearance on the main and 0.0018" on the rods. It's tighter than what I'd normaly run, but on the loose side according to the FSM. The main are tighter in order to push some oil toward the rods, where it matters.

    On an other note, oil stuck to the block walls is worthless oil...

    from this

    to this


    Expect some updates at the beginning of the week.
    Last edited by tommy; 07-02-2013 at 06:15 PM.
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  19. #79
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    Here are my patented new piston pin... spruce and masking tape




    Made them to test fit the bigblock idea... I'll let the pictures speak for themselves, but I really think I struck gold with that "pulsar rod in toyota block" idea







    All that is left to do is oversize the rod small end 1mm over and pressfit standard smallport 20mm piston pin (converting floating to press-in) because it's easier than to press a brass bushing and get some oil passage up there, plus since I'm not using oil skirters, I don't want to "oil starve" a floating pin... and I also like it tight :P

    To be continued...
    Last edited by tommy; 07-02-2013 at 06:16 PM.
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  20. #80
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    Well, just compared a stock 4AG piston to deck clearance... 0.015". Pretty darn close if you ask me

    I'll slap a TRD 0.8mm MLS gasket to bump the compression up to 10.8:1 and see if the extra piston dwell time at TDC and better rod angularity can allow my bluetop "bigblock" to play with blacktops... all with stock cams, engine control, intake and T-VIS. Wish me luck
    TE31 1977 - 2T-B (traded)
    KE20 1974 - Destroked 7A, project "bigblock A meets peanut" Link to build thread (Sold)
    AE95 1990 - 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

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