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Thread: Alignment

  1. #1
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    Alignment

    lets talk alignment in terms of grip / street / drift

    for hot lapping days this is what I noticed:

    1. camber
    with -3 and more I'll lose braking because there's less contact patch on the road
    with less than -2 you end up riding up on your sidewalls and just overall poor handling

    2. caster
    at first I thought you couldn't go wrong with as much caster as possible but at 4.8 degrees of positive caster and sticky tires, I've noticed a lot of bumpsteer and just whacky pulling. also there's dynamic camber in play but it causes the outside tire to gain negative camber in a corner which is not a downside. also noticed a lot of bump steer????

    3. toe
    seems like a little toe out makes the car handle better at the cost of your tires, doing 140 kph corners didn't feel unstable at all as I'm lead to believe from what other people say

    4. Ackerman
    this one gets tricky because it's a bit harder to adjust but I actually prefer a bit more Ackerman, really improves turn in

    feel free to correct me anywhere here if I'm wrong.

    now my problem is with my current alignment setup, the car is handling worse than before and I'm trying to find the sweet point.
    originally I had
    -2.8 camber
    3.5 degrees of caster
    1/32 toed out
    resulted in a lot of positive camber wear on the outside right wheel (lots of left sweepers at the track) so I decided to increase the camber and caster to...
    -3.7 camber
    +4.8 caster
    zero toe
    right now with all seasons it drives fine, but when I swap to sticky tires, the car handles really unpredictably with a lot of bumpsteer as well as the suspension feeling like it's just not adapting to the road. I'm going to dial it back a bit to 3.2 camber and 3.5 caster, id like to hear what everyone else is running, why and for what purpose. what benefits in terms of drifting and does it carry over to gripping

  2. #2
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    I'd say if you have camber plates, and they locate the upper mount forward in the opening on the strut, swap them side for side, redrill the hole. So that they sit to.the rear of the hole in the strut top.
    That way you gained castor at the top of the strut.
    Benefits?
    The wheel is more centred in the wheel opening, the rack, tie rods, and control arms, remain in a better alignment with each other.
    These all effect Ackerman, and Ackerman gives steering feed back.

    I know some people don't agree with moving the top of the strut back, cause JDM camber plates position the strut forward in the hole, so it must be good!
    OEM gts top mounts have the top of the strut in the rearward position.

    I would start there

  3. #3
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    Caster changes giving you bump steer? I don't think you will have any noticeable change between +2 and +8. Might be getting tire bounce since it's not flat on the ground.

    99% of this is moot without all the missing info. Weight, spring rate, tire size, tire pressure, roll center, track width, sway bars. Never mind the what and where you are driving.
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  4. #4
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    nothing changed besides alignment from my previous set up
    8kg
    koni race
    205/50-15
    + Derek's rcas
    Godspeed sway

    also I have the cusco camber plates that locate the strut to the back, I don't think I can get 4.8 degrees of caster without it
    I'm beginning to suspect the problem is caster but not caster... the sway bar endlinks are mis positioned and look like they're tweaking quite a bit because how far forward the control arm is now. same with the control arm bushing, but that's easily fixed with the heim joints

  5. #5
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    Wheel offset?
    Diference in offset and size of track set, and all season set?

  6. #6
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    the all seasons are 14x7-30 195/60r14
    the re11a and Hoosiers are 205/50-15 on 15x9

  7. #7
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    Weird, you would think the more negative offset as tires would possibly have more "bump" steer than the sticky guys which are already -15

  8. #8
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    Are you confusing bump steer with tramlining or scrub radius/caster effects?

    Bump steer is when the car changes direction without really forcing or moving the steering wheel on bumps or change in roll.

    Tramlining is when the toe out/in causes the car to favor the direction of one tire or the other and follow its direction when you hit a bump or a patch of pavement with different grip.

    There are also caster and scrub radius effects that will increase the forces on the steering wheel and obv as a result steer the car if you aren't holding the steering wheel in place(or have loose steering)

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  9. #9
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    That's why I wrote "bump" steer
    But you would think the non sticky tires, being that they are -30 offset would have more of a wandering effect than the -15 sticky tires.

  10. #10
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    Depending on how big your RCA's are, they will change over all axle inclination, and its effect is the same as Caster. To much Caster with a sticky tire can and will cause a jolt back on bumps that feels like bump steer.

    When im setting cars up, I don't focus on caster that much, as long as its equal. Its not a main focus unless the car is truly out to lunch. (that how I set up cars, others may do differently) Caster can kill turn in and cause odd dynamic wedging at times depending on SAI, where the sway bar pick up are. ( on strut, or on lower arm). That being said, if the car has ****ty turn in, and I cant fix it with toe, pressures camber etc, then I do reduce caster.

    A true track setup, on the street is going to chase everything! Even worse if your running any kind of scrub in the front. ( Some scrub can be good for steering feed back)

    As for alignment, that all depends on what the driver and tires are telling you. I run toe out on almost all my setups in the front, unless the car has a lot of dive, and the car constantly goes past its roll centers on heavy braking causing severe toe out at the point of turn it. ( heavy trail braking). This can cause a jitter on the limit.

    Camber, I run as much as the tire is calling for or usually as much as a class will allow. (reading tires is one of the most important things you can learn)
    Hoosiers like R6's need a lot, like 3.5 and up. Actually most slicks or DOT's do. RA1 or RR's style tires can get away with a little less. But I do know that hoosiers, need a lot of camber. You said you had bad positive camber wear? You mean the were eating the shoulder on your outside wheel? And by your pic im guessing your talking about the Ridge? The Ridge eats right fronts. When we do Eduro's there, we change the FR, and sometimes the RR during a race. nature of the beast.

    The Other adjustment that is quick and can make a big difference, is Rake. I tune with Rake quiet a bit actually.

    Im guessing your running an AE? Skinny cars tend to like a little roll, especially in the rear, this is more prominent in cars that tend to swap ends, like AE's, S2000's, RX's. They like a little roll to be fast.

    Also you don't state pressures? This is very important. You state that one tire was getting chewed up, if your too low on pressures, the tire will roll over and you will tend to eat the shoulder and outer half. The tire will look like it smeared to the inside, and there will be a visual dip near the outer edge.
    Pay attention to front vs rear wear and front vs rear pressures (Hot).

    Now this one is tough, and by no means don't take it as an insult. I have had Drivers feel the car was not right, and wanting to make changes. But it was actually driving style and driver mistakes that were causing the issues. ( its hard to be on point everyday! ) I have seen drivers have to adapt to a setup, and they usually get quite fast doing so. If your changing things every track day or between heats, then you could be doing more harm then good.
    Every day is going to be a little different especially with tires. Find a happy medium.

    Of the top of my head, An AE on Hoosier's. I would try this.

    1mm toe out per a side front.
    -3.5 camber, front read tires afterwards and adjust from there.
    Caster, 3.5-4 @ zero rake
    start with 0 rake if you can, this will be the most neutral. Add forward rake if you need more rotation, less if its tail happy.
    If your locking up under braking, and you think its camber, try carry your braking further into the turn to the point where you are turning in under braking, then rolling on to throttle at exit.
    Pressures, start equal around 25 psi, target 40 hot depending on tire. 45 area for full slicks, HOT. Read the tire and change appropreitly. If you come in at 40 hot front, and 35 hot rear, then raise rear, and vice versa.

    Try unhooking your rear bar for a session.

    Last and most important, make sure your setup is actually true. I have had to fix so many setups that are not even close to what customers think or were told they are.

    Hope this helps


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  11. #11
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    that helps an immense amount actually.

    I'm actually running 15x9 zero offset, I typed it out weird when I said 205/50-(r)15
    on my last ridge event I ran extremely skinny 185/55r14 which clearly I was running underpressure @ 32 HOT

    I ran about 1/32 toed out last year but decided to keep it zero toe this time to eliminate more variables as I'm trying a new set up, but it feels like minor toe out always results in better turn in

    I don't run a rear sway bar and I don't find it helps at all at least with my driving style, makes the rear end too loose and unpredictable

    also I'll be experiementing with carrying braking into the corner as well as my entire setup up at mission this week before heading back to the ridge in september. it's a lot of good information and I'll take that into account before jumping to conclusions and making adjustments. by no means do I consider myself knowledgable on corollas when it comes to lapping days and time attacks, but it does feel like there's a lack of information specifically for corollas when it comes to this. most of the time I'm getting advice from k20 eg, miatas, Subaru STIs and other vehicles that aren't very similiar, so i really appreciate what you guys are saying and will try to get feedback and seat time with that in mind

  12. #12
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    Here's my take on things. My setup being similar to duys
    15x8-0 205/50 R888 @ 35-40psi (I would change FvsR pressure to how the car felt)
    F 7kg / R 6.5kg Swift
    F Koni Race / R Koni Camaro yellow
    F Godspeed sway bar / R no sway bar
    Not lowered too much so with cusco RCA and T3 TB all my control arms were angled the same as stock except my upper links which will get taken care of for next season
    10mm Extended front control arms
    Majority of bushings switched to polyurethane
    Still had PS and stock knuckles

    I played with alignment settings which I found a happy medium for street/track
    1/32 toe out (any more toe out and turn in was violent for street driving pulling the car into the on coming lane)
    -3.5 camber (still experienced a lot of + camber wear from the ridge)
    3.5 caster (any more and I would be chewing my fender and bumper)

    The car felt really good and neutral. I trail brake majority of corners and I definitely enjoyed the way the car handled and considering there wasn't anybody proving faster around corners I cant complain. The car would initiate a 4 wheel drift quite easily but because of the setup turn 1 at the ridge it didnt feel squirly so I was able to enter with confidence. Honestly though I feel it can do more and I'd like to find that limit before switching to giant slicks and aero. That being said I still have one complaint towards handling which didnt become apparent until sitting in with a miata at the track and racing my altezza. When the corolla steps out either from entering too hard or breaking loose in a sweeper, your lap is ruined. The car just goes mad sideways so now youre trying to save it from going into the grass or spinning out. This is a common problem with short wheel base cars but the miata feels much more like my altezza regardless of size and thats more how I would like to make my corolla feel. They just feel like they are still gripping even while sideways and you can work with it instead of being in a panic to keep it together as if there is a much larger range to be considered a 4 wheel drift. The corolla is almost a chore to control in comparison often having to work the wheel like Tsuchiya.
    Also i was racing my stock bluetop and still easily getting squirly on exit so I need more grip in the rear but if I want more hp then I'll need more grip in the front to keep the car feeling neutral. So far the only plan to be changed in suspension are equal endlinks and longer front control arms to help plant the tq/hp of the new gze.
    Currently duy is playing around with suspension components and settings so if he can figure out a good way to improve front end grip then I can comfortably improve rear grip and have a pretty solid setup all around.
    "I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better and continue to do so."

  13. #13
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    Is the 7f 6.6r making the car extra tail happy?
    I've run 6.4 rears withn8k fronts, that was pretty tail happy, even 8f 6r is loose.
    I would try stiffer front and or softer rear springs

  14. #14
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    the 7/6.5 was definitely not a mistake, trying to test out the 1:1 ratio that tsuchiya and N2 guys are doing.
    Ive raced 8/6 with different sway bar and geometry settings and they are easier to control because there is more natural understeer instead of pure oversteer. So trail braking is easier to control and the whole car in general. But closer to 1:1 makes the car really easy to initiate a 4 wheel drift which considering with a stock engine and drivetrain I cant do that by giving more throttle. I compensated for that rear end looseness by installing a bigger front sway bar and throwing on traction brackets which worked well and still easy to 4 wheel drift. Its questionable which is a better setup but im very hopeful once I mod the car for equal end links and maybe run staggered with more power, the 1:1 ratio will be very good for quick cornering and rotation while keeping traction.
    "I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better and continue to do so."

  15. #15
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    so I took what dirt mcgirt said about a pure track car driving like crap on the road, went to track day as is, it was beautiful. loved every second of it, front suspension was perfect, a bit of understeer... I think I'll go slightly toed out. rear I need to hit up warren for equal links then I can die happy

  16. #16
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    I'm boggled, I'm more into drifting, and 1:1 would be impossible to drift fast.
    Not saying anyone is wrong, just trying to wrap my head around it.
    Then again my car has an even shorter wheelbase, 9k front, big front bar, and leafsprings! I'm the crazy one

    I'd like to feel the 1:1, I'm super curious now, you say no one can keep up in the corners, but if it gets loose its a lost cause, doesn't sound very forgiving

  17. #17
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    sorry theres huge gaps in information here, 1:1 i would say is probably wrong in any case except maybe keiichi tsuchiya. but in this case with the rear 4 links compromised and with the lack of a rear sway bar, 1:1 compensates for some of the missing antisquat and stiffness.

    also im definitely not saying no one can keep up in corners, thats totally not true lol. just saying so far with the run groups im in, im definitely using corners to catch people





    again feels good, but also feels like its compensating because of the antisquat issue
    Last edited by Duy-; 08-22-2014 at 09:10 PM.

  18. #18
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    Sorry Duy was mostly referring to slip'n'slide's post

  19. #19
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    Well I actually got to drive a couple different corollas at the track on the 19th.
    Black car: Stance coilovers 8/6, removed rear sway bar, kazz 2way with 4.77, 205/50/15 r888
    White car: Megan coilovers 8/6, removed rear sway bar, aftermarket front sway bar, rca, 4agze, rollcage, quick ratio steering rack, TRD 2way, 30mm extended front control arms, old 205/50/15 azenis

    So Ill start with the white car. It understeered, ALOT. But worked well with heavy trail braking because I could feel the front dig in and the rear shift and then Id play with the throttle from there. Problem is it wasnt true 4 wheel drifting where its gripping the whole time but instead it was just a controlled slide forcing the car to go around the corner quick but that could be related to the crappy tires. For learning it was a crap setup because beginners arent comfortable loading up the front while cornering hard. The supercharger was absolutely beautiful, could feather the throttle so well and controlled or hammer it and show off some drifting haha.

    Now with the black car it felt quite good. Light natural understeer which could normally be dialed out with light trail braking for entry and playing with the throttle on exit. it was very controllable and easy to drive. My issue was the sweeper just before the straight, it would understeer and I couldnt stop the understeer in any way. Lifting off the throttle isnt ideal in my opinion but full throttle just make it push more.

    Conclusion being neither cars felt as good as my 7/6.5 koni setup. Both cars were really bouncy and didnt want to naturally 4 wheel drift like my old setup if at all. They were on the other hand less twitchy and easier to control so I could be more consistent. For my future setup I will probably want characteristics like the black car so im not always spinning out and will be able to 4 wheel drift using throttle. For next year I will try my 7/6.5 because I think the current squirlyness will work to compensate for the planned equal end links and bigger rear tires which in turn give the car some slight natural understeer that can be dialed out by driver and initiated into 4 wheel drifting.
    "I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better and continue to do so."

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